tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post3725801070265920467..comments2023-07-03T03:16:12.356-07:00Comments on An American Minister (Formerly) in London: An Emergent DiscussionRev. John A. D'Eliahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03460378542471421949noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-10497954099820979692009-05-14T16:20:00.000-07:002009-05-14T16:20:00.000-07:00@Bobby Capps
while I was mostly attempting to be ...@Bobby Capps <br />while I was mostly attempting to be funny with my reference to Exodus 29 regarding the ordination ritual it lays out.<br /><br />I believe that the ordination process (PCUSA) much like it's polity is very biblical, I often liken it to the scripture on community discipline and accountability. If you see a brother or sister slip, you talk to them (particular church), if they don't listen bring one or two elders (presbytery), if they still do not listen take it to the whole community (general assembly) The reference escapes me at the moment but you get the idea.<br /><br />I also would point you to Ephesians 4 for a biblical interpretation of being set apart.<br /><br />I am not arguing that the processes themselves strictly conform to the words of Scriptures but at least in the PCUSA's case I believe the process is based on the bible and it's interpretation.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be great if everything we did conformed to scripture and the example of God Incarnate on this earth? Unfortunately, we are broken and sinful people in a broken and sinful world just trying to get by.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />GregGreg Bolthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11015129705029494788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-58995637996245000192009-05-14T13:21:00.000-07:002009-05-14T13:21:00.000-07:00what i find interesting about much of the emerging...what i find interesting about much of the emerging church movement, is that at its core a deconstructionist movement. <br /><br />similar to the way marxism provides a good critique of capitalism, and there is some truth it its observations, its prescriptive value (as we saw in the USSR) is of little merit. <br /><br />Once the emerging movement has deconstructed everything, church structure, pensions, pastor healthcare, buildings, entire ministries, what is left? <br /><br />The God we worship was in the PAST, present, and future. While it is good to correct a lot of the insular culture and mis-guided policies that entered the church through the decades, do not think god was not working in the mainline denominations who happened to be wealthy with nice buildings, in the same way he is working with the street children ministries now....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-73282266159049968792009-05-12T19:36:00.000-07:002009-05-12T19:36:00.000-07:00@Greg Bolt RT@bobbycapps unless you read alot betw...@Greg Bolt RT@bobbycapps unless you read alot between the Holy lines.<br /><br />Dear friend, Do you really think that what these guys are talking about has any close example/principle/guidance/prescription in the scriptures? Please! <br /><br />Your example IS my point.<br /><br />Keep reading,<br />BCAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06872522452783635855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-81459167194972205642009-05-12T14:03:00.000-07:002009-05-12T14:03:00.000-07:00Love this post. Being in the process of ordination...Love this post. Being in the process of ordination inside the PC(USA) I know it can be frustrating and some times tedious, but in my case all of that frustration led to some serious growth. <br /><br />I thank God that the committee that I worked with had the guts to say "No" and then helped me to work on my own issues.<br /><br />Also, I love the polity of the PC(USA) even if sometimes it makes me want to pull my hair out. I find the Holy Spirit working through the many hills and valleys of the ordination process.<br /><br />I also believe that not everyone should be ordained. There are standards, actually the standards that I hold up are not the same standards that get all the attention on the media and blogs, but that's something completely different.<br /><br />Thank you for your post.<br /><br />One last thing...@Bobby Capps, the idea of ordination (being set apart) is definitely Biblical, Aaron (Moses' brother, Exodus 29) and his family were set apart to be the priests of the Isrealite community. There is even a outline for ther service. It includes sacrifice of a lamb and placing the blood on the right ear, right thumb, and right big toe. We could get into a discussion of that, but I just want to sit with that image for a while. I think that would be sweet, but probably a little messy.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />GregGreg Bolthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11015129705029494788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-54713771478942345392009-05-12T13:27:00.000-07:002009-05-12T13:27:00.000-07:00Wonderful, reminds of two other 'lovers', Wesley a...Wonderful, reminds of two other 'lovers', Wesley and Whitfield as they disagreed, jabbed and swung hard, but loved at the same time.<br /><br />There's more to learn in the manner of your debate than the substance for me.<br /><br />Ordination is a religiopolitical somethingorother dreamed up somewhere along the way, hard to find anything about it in God's Word, unless you read alot between the Holy lines.<br /><br />Love the debate though. And the heart of the debaters.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06872522452783635855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-44018269381706710472009-05-12T02:41:00.000-07:002009-05-12T02:41:00.000-07:00I'm so grateful for all of your responses to my le...I'm so grateful for all of your responses to my letter. I've added an apology to Tony for a comment I made which was outside the bounds for a discussion like this one. <br /><br />Having been through the process myself I agree that there must be more the Adam story than is being shared. It's possible that what appears to be an unjust exercise of power on the part of the SF presbytery might actually be an appropriate 'keeping of the gate.'Rev. John A. D'Eliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03460378542471421949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-2330169796207360652009-05-11T12:58:00.000-07:002009-05-11T12:58:00.000-07:00Another area of privilege that you (appropriately)...Another area of privilege that you (appropriately) didn't mention is Tony's gender. For many women, the mainline denominations have provided the same kind of nurture and validation that you received from the PCUSA growing up. My church experience was outside the PCUSA but I chose it because it was a place willing to give me space and freedom to grow in confidence, to give me experience, and to provide structure to support me throughout my ministry. I couldn't find that in emergent churches who are usually filled with men who don't have a grasp on the gender gap and what is needed to support and care for women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-56034419014389847682009-05-11T12:50:00.000-07:002009-05-11T12:50:00.000-07:00thank you. you voiced my own sentiments beautifull...thank you. you voiced my own sentiments beautifully and articulately and i'm really glad Tony posted your response. thank you Tony for giving voice to a different perspective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-56526464921597079432009-05-11T11:21:00.000-07:002009-05-11T11:21:00.000-07:00Okay, posted about this on my blog, and quoted you...Okay, posted about this on my blog, and quoted your last sentence of your post. VERY POWERFUL...thanks for giving me food for thought, will follow up with more posts on this subject.PWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06210762674271155294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-46745207790491741592009-05-11T11:14:00.000-07:002009-05-11T11:14:00.000-07:00However, what do you think Tony's friend Adam shou...However, what do you think Tony's friend Adam should do? Do you think there's a time when submitting to the denominational authority goes against what you believe and you should stand up to it? <br /><br />This was asked by the commenter below me. I would like to get back into the discussion, and say that in my honest opinion, I think Tony's friend Adam should go back to the committee, (in some cases an appeal is often permitted, or even a clarification meeting), bringing along with him an advocate, a friend, a colleague. He can humbly go back and say/ask, why did you see that these courses are necessary for my ordination? Is this standard policy? Or is there something lacking in my file that you feel these courese will benefit? You are right, by beginning the road to ordination it is a process of submission to people who have your life in their hands. Many times, these people are secluded in chapel services and prayer times before making these decisions. These behind the scends prayer times are not always visible, but most often are present. <br /><br />BUT, if there is something that goes against the Bible, and the fundamentals/basic Christian teachings that the denomination is supporting THEN by all means, stand up, and be against those things. Ok, getting off of my soapbox.PWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06210762674271155294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-88461839758345623162009-05-11T11:02:00.000-07:002009-05-11T11:02:00.000-07:00Thanks for engaging in this discussion. I think y...Thanks for engaging in this discussion. I think your response is important and very truthfully and well said. However, what do you think Tony's friend Adam should do? Do you think there's a time when submitting to the denominational authority goes against what you believe and you should stand up to it? <br /><br />I personally hate the idea of buying into one denomination by becoming a member when we are all the body of Christ. Still, I did eventually join the church as you know, because I wanted to vote, and I understand that being organized can be useful. But I don't hold it tightly, and I'm saddened when institutions do use their clout to create barriers rather empowering the people of God for service. In which case pensions and health plans are a tangible way in which denominations enable service and you are right not to take those lightly. I don't in our secular work lives!<br /><br />Ultimately though, you are right -- Let's stop pointing fingers and start embracing what we care about together. <br /><br />Although I personally think we enjoy a little of the argument. Check out the internet monk blog (and his commenters) to see some of that.<br />KatherineLoma Kathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15325085914443172995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-86241145145630202992009-05-11T11:00:00.000-07:002009-05-11T11:00:00.000-07:00Thank you for your comments and insight. I'm havin...Thank you for your comments and insight. I'm having a tough time with denominations right now, and really appreciate your insight. I'm trying to look past the 'denominational' label, and find out what a true Christian is. I'm going to add you to my behind the scenes blogroll and keep following this discussion. BTW, my hubby has switched denominations since graduation/ordination. He is now on one of those committees NOT PCUSA...that decides, (controls?) the outcomes of candidates going the process of becoming a recognized leader within his chosen denomination. I see it from the other side. He and the committee are overseeing approximately 100+ people as they work their way this year through the process. When a situation comes up like this, he'll be the first to say, what's the WHOLE story. Do we as readers of these posts have the full picture. Maybe, just maybe, someone saw something in his file, that prompted a red or yellow flag, and is questioning that. On other issues, candidates are denied often by his committee and told to come back the next year, because they often have personal work on issues that may involve counseling or whatever to better equip them to be ministers. <br /><br />Then, there's the flip side that I"M dealing with..what about all the emphasis on ordination. Yes we need to have recognized leaders, but we also need to have the laypeople to step up so that we all can be a 'priesthood of all believers.' <br /><br />I'm dealing with all of this on my blog, and may use this as fodder for upcoming posts. thanks for your insight.PWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06210762674271155294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-53860239542355154292009-05-11T10:59:00.000-07:002009-05-11T10:59:00.000-07:00Thanks, John. We need to be reminded that our prid...Thanks, John. We need to be reminded that our pride can blind us.Phil Piriohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14680307308671937025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-72701906788157384712009-05-11T09:11:00.000-07:002009-05-11T09:11:00.000-07:00Thank you!Thank you!Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35717060.post-64679274430001421162009-05-11T06:40:00.000-07:002009-05-11T06:40:00.000-07:00Thank you for your very articulate, passionate, an...Thank you for your very articulate, passionate, and thoughtful response.Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06640018914098361293noreply@blogger.com